Curse

HigherMinion · Feb 03, 2010, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Zealous Vow doesn't deal damage, so we're merely talking about energy management here. Just to clear this up: It isn't me casting the prots. They get cast anyway by one of the monks, and usually give me all the energy I need without having to spend a single slot, let alone an elite slot.

I highly doubt without any self-contained e-management you can spam as much as ZV; so we ARE talking about damage, because without it you will be on 0e alot of the time trying to do what that elite can do. A few prots just won't cut it.

Also due to attribute spread you can actually bring some decent skills for a change.

Nechrond · Feb 03, 2010, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I highly doubt without any self-contained e-management you can spam as much as ZV; so we ARE talking about damage, because without it you will be on 0e alot of the time trying to do what that elite can do. A few prots just won't cut it.

Also due to attribute spread you can actually bring some decent skills for a change.

If we're both hitting one target, I bet I can spam at least as much. If we're hitting multiples, you'd clearly beat me energy-wise. But that leaves me with an elite slot to help my damage along.
Perhaps if you use both quick-attacks, a constant IAS and one expensive scythe attack you'll deal more damage, but Mysticism is more reliable since it doesn't collapse as soon as you miss a few times.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 03, 2010, 07:26 PM // 19:26

I tried a variant P/D build last night that worked pretty well:
scythe 12 leadership 12+1+1 command 3+1

wounding strike
mystic sweep
go for the eyes
blazing finale
glowing gaze
asuran scan
great dwarf armor
aura of holy might

the good side is longer burning and deep wound spam from Wounding Strike. the downside is that it's more difficult to maintain energy while alone or hitting few targets. i was just testing against master of damage so this is probably not an issue in typical PvE with a whole group with you. DPS was lower than the other build because of fewer enchantments and no bonus damage from wounding strike. (but deep wound probably makes up for this)
if you don't need glowing gaze for energy then consider carrying Hexbreaker Aria or Song of Concentration or Anthem of Flame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

If we're both hitting one target, I bet I can spam at least as much. If we're hitting multiples, you'd clearly beat me energy-wise. But that leaves me with an elite slot to help my damage along.
Perhaps if you use both quick-attacks, a constant IAS and one expensive scythe attack you'll deal more damage, but Mysticism is more reliable since it doesn't collapse as soon as you miss a few times.

Paragons don't have access to Mysticism so this is not an option.

MercenaryKnight · Feb 04, 2010, 04:34 AM // 04:34

He was arguing that a primary dervish wouldn't need zealous vow to spam attacks because of the mysticism.

I am guessing that the only choices for paragon's 3rd scythe attack would be a toss up between farmer's scythe and victorious sweep (low recharge wise). I guess victorious sweep would be more useful for health + not relying on hitting multiple enemies to recharge.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 04, 2010, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

He was arguing that a primary dervish wouldn't need zealous vow to spam attacks because of the mysticism.

I am guessing that the only choices for paragon's 3rd scythe attack would be a toss up between farmer's scythe and victorious sweep (low recharge wise). I guess victorious sweep would be more useful for health + not relying on hitting multiple enemies to recharge.

Okay then... strictly from a theoretical standpoint, we can prove that mysticism is not enough. If we spam some 5e attack skill and follow it with a 3/4s quick attack skill, we can do both in about 2.5 seconds, or even faster under IAS. So we need 10 energy every 2.5 seconds to maintain this.

Dervish gains 4 energy every 3 seconds from natural regen. If you happen to have 9+ mysticism AND you have two enchantments ending on you every 3 seconds, then you can get 10 energy in 3 seconds and maintain this rate of energy consumption. That seems a little unreasonable to me, even a prot monk with quick-casting spells can barely cast two of them on you in 3s, much less have them keep ending that quickly. remember aftercast. If you are under IAS or use attack skills that cost more than 5e or use other skills that cost energy all of this gets even harder to maintain.

Back to what you were saying earlier... farmer's scythe sounds pretty good, although victorious and mystic and eremites are spammable enough for my taste. If I have to make an Aura of Holy Might and Asuran Scan empowered autoattack for 150+ damage I won't cry too much. If you have an extra slot you may want to take some utility like Banishing Strike (destroy all minions and spirit spam) or maybe crippling sweep (keep them close until they are dead).

Nechrond · Feb 05, 2010, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Okay then... strictly from a theoretical standpoint, we can prove that mysticism is not enough. If we spam some 5e attack skill and follow it with a 3/4s quick attack skill, we can do both in about 2.5 seconds, or even faster under IAS. So we need 10 energy every 2.5 seconds to maintain this.

Dervish gains 4 energy every 3 seconds from natural regen. If you happen to have 9+ mysticism AND you have two enchantments ending on you every 3 seconds, then you can get 10 energy in 3 seconds and maintain this rate of energy consumption. That seems a little unreasonable to me, even a prot monk with quick-casting spells can barely cast two of them on you in 3s, much less have them keep ending that quickly. remember aftercast. If you are under IAS or use attack skills that cost more than 5e or use other skills that cost energy all of this gets even harder to maintain.

If you go in without a second melee, most of the prots will be cast on you. Reversal of Fortune and Life Sheath can easily both be cast on you by one monk in 3 seconds with time to spare. If you've got any other good Dervish-supporting enchantments in your team, like Order of the Vampire or Vigorous Spirit, it gets even easier. Spirit can be sacced to end it early for extra energy, Dervish has more than enough options for that.
And I wouldn't dream of going anywhere with less than 9 Mysticism.

HigherMinion · Feb 05, 2010, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

If you go in without a second melee, most of the prots will be cast on you. Reversal of Fortune and Life Sheath can easily both be cast on you by one monk in 3 seconds with time to spare. If you've got any other good Dervish-supporting enchantments in your team, like Order of the Vampire or Vigorous Spirit, it gets even easier. Spirit can be sacced to end it early for extra energy, Dervish has more than enough options for that.
And I wouldn't dream of going anywhere with less than 9 Mysticism.

However, what Prot monk have you seen recently running Life Sheath? It's not good to rely on others for your energy management. I wouldn't trust anyone else, other than to place damage buffs and maintained bonds on me. Enchants that require timing and must END to take effect, are not going to work well.

Also, that monk you tell to spam prots on you will run out of energy faaaaaaast.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 05, 2010, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

However, what Prot monk have you seen recently running Life Sheath? It's not good to rely on others for your energy management. I wouldn't trust anyone else, other than to place damage buffs and maintained bonds on me. Enchants that require timing and must END to take effect, are not going to work well.

Also, that monk you tell to spam prots on you will run out of energy faaaaaaast.

i was thinking the same thing... in order to maintain 2 enchantments that expire on you every 3 seconds, the monk is going to burn 10e in that time, or an energy deficit of 6 every 3 seconds. that means he has burned 60 energy on this in 30 seconds and is out of energy, even if he does nothing else. (read: useless to the rest of the group) when I run out of energy, i do less damage, when the monk runs out of energy people die. i'd rather not be a drain on the monk if i can help it. If you're getting a lot of enchantments from other sources (orders etc.) then maybe it's not such a big problem.

anyways... this is all academic really, only dervishes have access to mysticism so paragon/warrior/ranger/assassin must make do with something else to manage energy. Paragons can do it with Leadership, warriors use Warrior's Endurance, Rangers use Expertise, and Assassins have Critical Strikes. If these are not enough for whatever reason then Zealous Vow will allow infinite spam: truly infinite, since you gain more energy per swing than it costs to activate the attack skill, and you gain energy even from autoattacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

If you go in without a second melee, most of the prots will be cast on you. Reversal of Fortune and Life Sheath can easily both be cast on you by one monk in 3 seconds with time to spare. If you've got any other good Dervish-supporting enchantments in your team, like Order of the Vampire or Vigorous Spirit, it gets even easier. Spirit can be sacced to end it early for extra energy, Dervish has more than enough options for that.
And I wouldn't dream of going anywhere with less than 9 Mysticism.

I do.

Seriously, I only run high mysticism for the avatars. When I am on my dervish i am mostly running 14 scythe, 13 wind, 3 mysticism, and I take Onslaught and Guiding Hands along with Aura of Holy Might etc. Permanent IAS and IMS is so so nice with AoHM. Faster attacks also charge up Whirlwind Attack and Save Yourselves faster if you are into that.

Nechrond · Feb 10, 2010, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Using rank skills is cheating, I don't do that.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 10, 2010, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Using rank skills is cheating, I don't do that.

mmmk.

Level 30 monsters with inherent IAS, IMS, improved cast time, improved recharge time, improved energy regeneration, improved armor level and monster skills is also cheating. IMO the PvE skills just level the playing field a bit, but it takes full consets to level the playing field completely.

besides, if you are using a scythe and not using Aura of Holy Might you are missing out on a lot of damage.

Nechrond · Feb 10, 2010, 02:09 PM // 14:09

But if I DO use it, I use the awesome synergy with my blood hero's OotV.

HigherMinion · Feb 10, 2010, 03:01 PM // 15:01

PvE skills are not cheating. Neither are consumables, nor are summoning stones.

People keep trying to prove how bad people are by saying things like, "their build depends on PvE skills for it to work" and "PvE skills are cheating".

Well, no. They are part of the game, put in there for Factions, Nightfall and Eye of The North by the Devs.

If it was cheating, that would involve hacks! Use the skills while they're still powerful; I believe they were put there to promote playing with real people who can all use these powerful skills, instead of Heroes.

Saying "I don't use PvE skills and I can do everything you can do." sounds elitist, and you don't know it.

Edit: When it comes to damage, AoHM> OoV; let the rest of your team reap it's benefits, or change that hero.

Nechrond · Feb 10, 2010, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

If it was cheating, that would involve hacks!

No, if it were hacking, it would involve hacks. Cheats are built into the game. Remember IDDQD, IDKFA in Doom? Those are cheats.

Quote:

Saying "I don't use PvE skills and I can do everything you can do." sounds elitist, and you don't know it.

I don't doubt that you can do more than I can using those skills. They are, after al, extremely powerful. And I don't blame you for using them. If you have more fun that way, why should I stop you, or even want to stop you? It's not as if you'll ever get to use them against me in PvP - ANet was smart enough to make rank skills PvE-only.

Quote:

Edit: When it comes to damage, AoHM> OoV; let the rest of your team reap it's benefits, or change that hero.

Aye, but synergy is more than just adding some damage. OotV also fuels Mysticism and ench-saccing skills, plus it makes the healers' jobs easier.

Anyway, let's go back to melee Para builds, shall we? My Dervish likes Go for the Eyes! in some areas. It's got a lot of synergy with scything, because scythes benefit more from crits than other weapons, plus when hitting multiple foes, you get to charge it up faster. In P/D, you get the added benefit of regaining some energy with it. Sounds like it should work quite well.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 10, 2010, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Aye, but synergy is more than just adding some damage. OotV also fuels Mysticism and ench-saccing skills, plus it makes the healers' jobs easier.

Anyway, let's go back to melee Para builds, shall we? My Dervish likes Go for the Eyes! in some areas. It's got a lot of synergy with scything, because scythes benefit more from crits than other weapons, plus when hitting multiple foes, you get to charge it up faster. In P/D, you get the added benefit of regaining some energy with it. Sounds like it should work quite well.

OotV is a great skill but since we're talking about paragons, they can't take advantage of mysticism anyway, so I wouldn't feel too bad about staying away from Orders and using AoHM, Strength of Honor, and Splinter Weapon instead. While you're at it stack up GFTE, Asuran Scan, and I Am The Strongest and watch things explode into red mist. XD

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 17, 2010, 07:21 PM // 19:21

oh by the way... 100lols for paragon. just for fun.

sword 12 leadership 10+1+1 command 8+1
hundred blades
whirlwind attack
sun and moon slash
go for the eyes
you are all weaklings
i am the strongest
for great justice
blazing finale

EBSoH could be useful too, just replace one of the norn shouts.

edit:
this is not a joke, I brought a smite monk with Strength of Honor and I got up to 242 dps with a slightly modified build: OQGjQxmIqSTNBGvl9F5izkaFwbA

the smite monk was not doing anything except providing the Strength of Honor and Succor enchantments. death occurred after 2 seconds, highest damage 389. O_o

I was using Frenzy for IAS but I'd suggest rock candy or pumpkin pie for hardmode. I also had Asuran Scan which improves the damage, but Whirlwind attack is going to do a lot of AoE damage plus help your adrenaline so that's probably a better bet for general use. note that you can (and should) use signet of aggression to fully charge your adrenaline outside of combat so you can just walk in and unload. note #2... EBSoH boosts damage from every hit of Hundred Blades as well as every hit from the sword and it is maintainable 100%.